.

[guard4life10]

It amazes me how different the NorCal guards and SoCal guards are. At the Chino High School Review, the Riverside King HS guard recieved a 96.55, and don't get me wrong, their execution was near perfection, but i dont think they would have stood a chance against the NorCal guards in a NCBA sanctioned event. Their routine is far less complicated than any top guard routine I've seeen on the NCBA streets. however, I can also see a NCBA guard get demolished by the guards in southern California in their own event. Why are the expectations so different?

[JCYS]

It amazes me how different the NorCal guards and SoCal guards are. At the Chino High School Review, the Riverside King HS guard recieved a 96.55, and don't get me wrong, their execution was near perfection, but i dont think they would have stood a chance against the NorCal guards in a NCBA sanctioned event. Their routine is far less complicated than any top guard routine I've seeen on the NCBA streets. however, I can also see a NCBA guard get demolished by the guards in southern California in their own event. Why are the expectations so different?

That's a great question, but the answer is complicated. I'll try to be as reasonable as possible realizing that we all have our own beliefs and prejudices.

First of all, you hit the nail on the head with your phrase "Why are the expectations so different." Expectations is the key word. Let's agree that the guards from both ends of the state are capable of some outstanding performances. Groups like Rancho Bernardo, Chino, Fairfield, etc. regularly go to WGI and compete well in Scholastic Open or World. So let us agree that WHAT they can do is not a factor..

The expectations come into play on two levels. One is...what can the guard do on the street to win GUARD awards, and what can the guard do on the street to help the band win their awards (specifically showmanship and marching). Here the expectations are very, very different. What the guard can do for the band will specifically HELP or HURT the band depending on if you are in SCSBOA or NCBA.

If we had had YouTube in the 1980's you would have seen pretty much the same thing on both ends of the state. That started to change in 1991 when the NCBA was formed and in the SCSBOA too...but in the other direction.

Philosophy wise...the SCSBOA refers to parade competition as the ability to emulate a military band. Everything is based on precision....ie, cleanliness. Every miniscule "dirtiness" from that ideal is a detraction.
So, as the SCSBOA moved away from the huge street guards, weapons on the street, etc. in the 1990's, the NCBA moved to embrace more and more guard "show" on the street. The ideal to them became a parade band where the guard does a field show around the band in their 450' of competition. Today I would say that that is being pushed into an idea of the guard does a winter guard show around the band as they march through.

Thus, while the bands from So Cal COULD do what NCBA is doing on the street, their ideal is that it just adds more "dirt" to the show...indeed, as totally clean as some of the top guards are down south, you can still see the tiny execution errors in both equipment and footwork.

As you commented, by those standards even the best Nor Cal guards add tons of execution errors to a parade performance. Though those guards are good, and might win an auxiliary trophy in So Cal, it would cost the bands dearly.

On the other hand, just the opposite is true in NCBA. When their bands venture northward, they are penalized for lack of guard content.

This all comes down not just to two totally different and opposing philosophies, but 2 other factors:
1. The SCSBOA is a band organization, run by band directors only. Guard people and instructors do not get a vote.
2. The NCBA is an organization where everyone gets a vote, and at many meetings their are as many or more guard instructors and percussion instructors in attendance as directors.

and....

In NCBA the guard is probably half the points of the band score. Indeed, depending on the judges (because the sheets leave it wide open to the individual judge...which is why you have more "flip/flop" scores),
200 or more (sometimes all 300) of the band's showmanship score is the auxiliary, and many times the marching judges will comment ding you more on the marching errors of your guard than the band. It is safe to say that in many cases, around 400 of your BAND points on the street are about the guard.

In SCSBOA, just the opposite is true. The showmanship sheet is about the band (only 30 points of it are for the guard). And the marching judge will probably not even hardly look at the guard.

Now, I realize your question is about GUARD scoring. And what I've been leading up to is that on both ends of the state the guard has expectations based on what the expectations for the band scoring is.
At one time, they were the same.

It is also not coincidence that almost without exception ALL So Cal parade bands also compete in field, while the reverse is true in Nor Cal. So, the guards down south have their work cut out for them covering the huge expectations of them on the field. In Nor Cal, we have created field show guards for no field.

Since the expectations in Nor Cal have increased dramatically in what is expected of the guard on the street...a huge learning curve and time commitment, you have seen many, many field bands leave the street in Nor Cal. They can march well, and play a march well, but they get murdered score-wise because their guards just don't have the time to put together a huge show for the street. That, BTW...is my opinion. But 20-30 years ago literally 99% of all Nor Cal bands did band reviews....Homestead, Saratoga, Del Oro, Oakmont, even Beyer and Logan's freshmen band. Groups that today rarely or never do street. Even Live Oak in the "Rubino" years did street.

Lastly, and this is just my opinion, although what they do in So Cal seems simpler, it seems to me that in some cases they are using, what one of NCBA's best guard instructors calls "the triad" more extensively.
Maybe I'm wrong in this, I'm not a guard instructor.

Hope that gives you some things to ponder. I have taught at both ends of the state, and have my own opinions on what should be appropriate to the street, but I tried to give you the best view of the reasons things are the way they are.

JS

[Hostrauser]

One of the best posts ever on WOP.

[dr]

Wow!!! You won't get a better answer than that!! Thanks, Jeff!

[JCYS]

@ Dennis and Kevin

ah shucks...

[Luis]

You're the man, Mr. Stratton!

guard4life10, if you want to read a little more with regards to your question, our very own Dave asked a similar question back in 2006. You can read it here if interested...

[corkie]

JYCS wrote:
"In SCSBOA, just the opposite is true. The showmanship sheet is about the band (only 30 points of it are for the guard). And the marching judge will probably not even hardly look at the guard."

Actually, the top box on the SCSBOA Showmanship sheet is for "Attached Units". Before the decimal gets moved over, the box is worth 65 points out of 1000. The vast majority of the points on the Showmanship sheet are about how the band proper looks and sounds.

[dr]

Actually, the top box on the SCSBOA Showmanship sheet is for "Attached Units". Before the decimal gets moved over, the box is worth 65 points out of 1000. The vast majority of the points on the Showmanship sheet are about how the band proper looks and sounds.

It's actually 65 points out of 300 possible points, which is 65/300 or 21.7% of the score on the new 2010 Showmanship sheets. It WAS 60 points out of 300 or 20% of the score prior to this year.

In the bigger picture, it is only 65 points out of a possible 1000 points (or 6.5%) of the overall band score.

The marching & maneuvering sheet can also affect the score since auxiliary errors are determined by individual member's errors and have the same value as band member's errors.

[JCYS]

JYCS wrote:
"In SCSBOA, just the opposite is true. The showmanship sheet is about the band (only 30 points of it are for the guard). And the marching judge will probably not even hardly look at the guard."

Actually, the top box on the SCSBOA Showmanship sheet is for "Attached Units". Before the decimal gets moved over, the box is worth 65 points out of 1000. The vast majority of the points on the Showmanship sheet are about how the band proper looks and sounds.

Sorry, quoting from memory, always a bad thing to do at my age...

[oreocookis]

I kind of wish NCBA would favor the bands more then the guard. Being a guard instructor with over 90% being new people each year is tough, whats tougher is being told by CG judges that your guard isnt like the guards who do basically WG on the street and that they have little knowledge about how to be a good guard. I see those two things differently, what I can get my guard to do with such little time I am proud of, but I wish it would not effect the rest of the band. This year I had the best color guard I have had in all my years of instructing, and with only 2 out of 7 returning to have them perform to the ability they did was amazing for me to see' along with great attitudes. We will never be like a Logan or most other schools who have feeder guard programs, we just do the best we can do with what we have.
Why do they have novice classes for WG and not for color guard on the street or on the field?

[SoCalBandFreq]

Mt. Carmel Host band parade performance at Mt. Carmel 2010
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KvgwNNrYaZs

[Psalm 56]

THIS IS SUPER!!! Gosh you are a GIVING human being. I can not thank you enough for all the work you did this FALL. This is a fantastic research.

Could I please ask all you MENTOR TEACHERS AND COLLEGE PROFESSORS OF MUSIC EDUCATION a huge favor??? Give your students this linK and HELP THEM BECOME BETTER BAND DIRECTORS. I know that these videos are going to be EXTREMELY helpful!! The day I become a better band director is when I will pass away. Not to be morbid.....but I will "never" be a "better" band director - it's an ongoing process. Gosh, I look/listen at what Luis has given to us and can not express ENOUGH my sincere appreciation. If I was a college student, these videos would be wonderful for me.

THANK YOU LUIS... HAVE A WONDERFUL CHRISTMAS!!

[Luis]

THIS IS SUPER!!! Gosh you are a GIVING human being. I can not thank you enough for all the work you did this FALL. This is a fantastic research.

Could I please ask all you MENTOR TEACHERS AND COLLEGE PROFESSORS OF MUSIC EDUCATION a huge favor??? Give your students this linK and HELP THEM BECOME BETTER BAND DIRECTORS. I know that these videos are going to be EXTREMELY helpful!! The day I become a better band director is when I will pass away. Not to be morbid.....but I will "never" be a "better" band director - it's an ongoing process. Gosh, I look/listen at what Luis has given to us and can not express ENOUGH my sincere appreciation. If I was a college student, these videos would be wonderful for me.

THANK YOU LUIS... HAVE A WONDERFUL CHRISTMAS!!

Thank you for your kind words, Mr. Everts. If what I've done has helped some music programs out there in whichever way, I feel I have accomplished something